Posts by Joe Grundy

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

Joe Grundy

As to the origins of the OT - I watched this on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5RfScpEcZ8

I'm not competent to comment on its accuracy, but it's compelling, and sits well with other work by (for example) Francesca Stavrakopoulou which casts doubt on the veracity of the stories of David, etc.

At about 1:20 it suggests that the Torah (the Pentateuch) was written and promulgated in 458 BC by Ezra. This would, perhaps, make the OT as reliable historically as the NT.

Worth a watch, I suggest.

(PS: In a comment which is entirely beneath me and irreverent, I recommend Francesca's you tube videos for her scholarship, communication skills, and mammaries.)

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

Joe Grundy

"We can find value in many teachings it doesn't mean we have to accept it lock, stock and barrel."

That's true, of course, and it includes all 'teachings' from whatever source. That's an enlightened view - assess, evaluate, accept or discard. But it's not one which sits well with many in the religious world. If you teach that the bible (however defined) is divinely inspired and inerrant, and that your god is all-powerful and unchanging, you have to accept it all - and then try to explain away the unacceptable stuff.

Or, you 'cherry pick' - and once you start doing that your 'cherry picked bits' may, no will, differ from others and so you've started your own religion/sect/cult - which quite nicely illustrates that religion is a man-made thing built to suit your own circumstances, needs and aspirations.

An example which quickly comes to mind - isn't there a teaching in the NT which talks about giving away your worldly possessions, taking no thought for the morrow, etc? And yet Mormons (I think) and certainly some US fundy groups say that financial prosperity is a gift from their god and a reward for their faith. Choose your view and someone somewhere will provide a justification for it.

84

1975 failed prediction?

by Garrett in

jw
friends

heyo,.

your favorite garrett here.

so, i'm about to have an elder tell me allll about the failed 1975 doctrine.

Joe Grundy

I never was a JW, yet I am aware of the '1975' debacle (as I am aware of the 'Beth Sarim' for 'returning princes' fiasco and others).

It seems to me (though I stand to be corrected) that WTBTS - as ever - wish to rewrite their history ;'1984' style, failed prophecies being just one aspect of it. Once upon a time, that was easier than it is today. Here on JWN we have eye-witness testimony, always crucial, and enough of it to be historically significant.

As an outsider, my view is that the more evidence of their history, whether by recorded eye-witness testimony, recorded documents, etc., the better.

During a recent FS visit to my house a JW who claimed to be an elder and to have been a baptised JW for nearly fifty years claimed to have no knowledge of any significance of the year 1975. I told him that there was no point in talking to him because he was either dishonest or had no knowledge of the WTBTS.

18

GB Bodyguards

by Socrateswannabe in

i have heard that at the international conventions and even at us headquarters, the governing body travel with entourages or bodyguards.

does anyone know this to be a fact?

if so, why?

Joe Grundy

Reminds me a little of 'Animal Farm' (George Orwell). I'm sure I recall that the governing pigs came to be surrounded and protected by snarling dogs ...

105

LATEST NEWS: CANDANCE CONTI VERIDICT READY - WT LOST!!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

jw
friends

i'm not an expert but that is my understanding of this: .

opinion filed.. (signed published) the judgment against defendants on the negligence count is affirmed.

the judgment against watchtower on the cause of action for punitive damages is reversed with directions to enter judgment for watchtower on punitive damages.

Joe Grundy

My undersstanding of the ruling is this:

1. The court has upheld the negligence finding against WT (this was the smaller of the amounts awarded).

2. The court has overturned the punitive damages finding against WT.

13

IMPORTANT: JW Congregation in Britain loses case!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

jw
friends

from the ruling: .

"we note that the congregation and the charity are one and the same entity in this case, so that whilst the congregation understandably wishes to follow its religious practices, its status as a registered charity brings with it, in exchange for public recognition and tax reliefs, a requirement to maintain certain standards of behaviour.

it also brings with it the risk that, if there are concerns about its activities, these might be inquired into by the respondent.

Joe Grundy

"73.Finally, we were concerned that, although Mr Clayton accepted in his skeleton argument that the disfellowhipping process for Mr Rose was poorly-handled,there was other material before us which suggested that the arrangement of a confrontation of an accuser by their accused, as happened in Mr Rose’s case is official guidance for Jehovah’s Witness Congregations. We particularly noted the “Elders’ Handbook” paragraph 39 in this regard."

This case is running alongside the Charity Commission's investigation into WTGB, and the same judge has made several rulings on that. (Previous threads on JWN refer).

11

Nigerian scammers are getting hilariously sloppy - read this

by sir82 in

here is part of a scam e-mail delivered to my junk folder (i glance thru it every so often for kicks).

i highlighted the parts i found especially goofy:.

we found your name in our list and that is why we are contacting you, and we are happy to announce to you that every necessary legalarrangement regarding to your compensation has been signed and sealed.

Joe Grundy

If you enjoy these, try 419eater.com

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Joe Grundy

If an outsider may be allowed to comment ...

It often seems odd to me that in a country based on a secular constitution, with express separation of church and state, religion and the religious have so much influence. Having said that, there is a view that when the Mayflower left England the 'freedom' that the 'pilgrims' sought was the freedom to persecute each other more than they were allowed to do in England.

Various polls show the extent of fairly fundamental religious beliefs in the US. I think I'm right in saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that over 50% of the population believe that the 'Second Coming' will occur within fifty years. That's disturbing (to me, at least) and illustrates one problem with this type of legislation. I am sure that the lawmakers blithely assumed that the 'religious belief' concerned would overwhelmingly be their brand of christianity. How would they feel if, for example, the majority of the population became muslim and it was normal to discriminate against women not wearing burkhas?

There are many wacko religions and as I understand it in the US they are all entitled to equal status. So essentially anyone can justify any discrimination provided that they claim it is in accordance with their religious belief.

It's a good principle when considering legislation to imagine the most absurd circumstances and see how the proposed law would apply.

44

JW's caught laughing at Child rapist accusers"

by Newly Enlightened in

jwvictims has done an excellent but disturbing article on how jw's feel about the child abuse problem.. http://jwvictims.org/2013/11/23/jehovahs-witnesses-caught-laughing-at-child-rape-accusers/.

Joe Grundy

"elders would go to jail before disclosing any confidential matter to the authorities"

Well, they just may have to. And it won't be 'persecution'.

When, in England & Wales, judges issue subpoenae or Production Orders (as in the current Charity Commission -v- WTBTS case) failure to comply is contempt of court. Punishment is at the judge's discretion and includes imprisonment and unlimited fine.

WTBTS is, in its own mind, all-powerful. In reality, its not.

28

JW Child Abuse Makes 'Private Eye'

by Joe Grundy in

following on from the recent thread about wt losing an appeal concerning the uk charity commission (sorry, i can't do the link) i'm pleased to report that this matter is covered in the latest 'private eye' (20 march - 2 april issue).. it's a one-third page article (p.34) under the heading 'child abuse' and the headline 'silent witnesses'.

it reports the case accurately, mentions several criminal cases and the ongoing high court compensation case.

it includes some of judge mckenna's comments..

Joe Grundy

Jan

I've read this thread.

My thoughts are these. 'Private Eye' is an extremely well respected publication, read by many politicians, law-makers, persons of influence, etc. (as well as us general cynics and shit-stirrers). One of the reasons it is so respected is that its stories are well-researched and stand up to scrutiny - they have to, the publishers have been sued for libel before (usually they win).

Sources for their stories are generally unimputable, and that is their strength. They are not, and operate differently from, the tabloid (or broadsheet) press which they regularly lampoon.

I will continue to monitor (so far as I am able) the CC proceedings and will, of course, pass on to my journalist contact anything useful. Knowing the investigative journalism pedigree of 'Private Eye', I think that she will be keeping an eye on this story.

The best way to progress it, I think, is through court reports, etc. Tabloid journalism won't help - it's too easy to discount.